Zack Hofer left a conservative Anabaptist community with a wife and four children, and nothing else. The group shared one bank account across twenty families, so leaving meant leaving empty-handed. No money, no credit history, no bank history, and work experience that amounted to farming and livestock. He landed in the Twin Cities needing to feed a family of six.
The climb is the episode. An electrician apprenticeship that left too much month at the end of the money. Door-knocking for handyman work on lead apps. A concrete driveway pour where the truck showed up three hours early on a hot day, and the custom home builder down the street watched the whole scramble and hired him anyway. Trim work, then eight houses of flooring that wrecked his knees, then tile, the trade he fell in love with. Then the builder went bankrupt during COVID, some jobs never got paid, and he was back to knocking doors. A business coaching company out of Tulsa helped him rebrand as MSP Tile & Floor, set up his Google listing, and put a real sales system under the work. Today he's booked out weeks in advance on Google reviews and referrals, and he hasn't paid for a lead in years. One of those Google-review leads was Anthony Edwards' floor.
The part I'd point any contractor at is his sales breakdown. The practical side is four letters he teaches every guy on his crew: appearance, behavior, communication, digital footprint. The psychological side is restraint. He stocks fifteen shower shelves and shows clients two, because a client with too many options goes from choosing into worrying, and worrying often ends in no decision at all. He backs it with a mints study he cites from the Journal of Applied Social Psychology: one mint with the bill bumped tips 3 percent, two mints 14 percent, and one mint plus a return trip to say "what a nice guy you are" hit 24 percent. Generosity comes back around. He runs his whole business on that.
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Chapters
- 00:00 - Introduction and Zack's background
- 01:00 - Transition from farming to construction
- 01:57 - Pivoting into electrical work and hustling for leads
- 03:55 - Building credit and business structure
- 04:56 - Rebranding and marketing strategies
- 07:03 - Handling setbacks and business challenges
- 09:53 - Specializing in tile and flooring
- 13:48 - Using digital marketing and Google reviews
- 18:07 - The ABCD sales principles: appearance, behavior, communication, digital footprint
- 23:49 - Psychology of decision-making and simplifying choices
- 32:00 - The power of small gestures: mints and tips
- 35:58 - Building trust and reputation through consistency
- 39:56 - Challenges in the digital landscape and staying compliant
- 45:04 - Advice for the next generation in trades
- 50:03 - Patience, learning, and resilience in business
Takeaways, in Zack's words
- "There was too much month left at the end of the money."
- "People are not gonna outsource their work to somebody who doesn't look the part."
- "When you give a client too many options, they go from choosing into worrying."
- "Keep it simple, because it is."
- "In the trades you have to make your mistakes to learn."
Full transcript
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:00:00] Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of the Reasonable Contractor Podcast. I am your host, Ryan Templin, The Reasonable Tech Dad. Here with a friend Zack from MSP, Tile and Flooring, sir. Welcome. Thank you for coming, dude. And uh I looked at your website before we came on. You got a really nice draw or p picture of the Twin Cities skyline. And from what you told me, there's a pretty good backstory to that, dude. So why don't you uh start there? Tell us how you got started, tell us how long you've been in business, and then talk about that skyline reference, dude.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:00:27] Yeah. Hey, yeah, it's it's good to finally talk to you, Ryan. Uh yeah, the way so let me start at the beginning basically. I um come from uh a conservative Anabaptist group and the way that group is structured is basically there's one bank account and let's say twenty families and we share the same bank account. So when you leave, you essentially leave with nothing. No bank history, no credit history, no money, no you leave empty-handed. And for me, I had a wife and four children at the time. And I was going to leave I was going to leave them and come to a major metropolitan city. And my work experience was not in c in construction, it was in
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:01:12] Scary.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:01:26] I come from a background of farming. I spent many years farming, heavy equipment operating uh operation like e uh farm equipment and um livestock. I was a livestock manager for many years. And so I understand livestock quite well and and farming. So I came to town and I'm like, okay, how does a farmer and a livestock farmer make a living in a major metropolitan city? And that became quite a journey for me. So
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:01:40] Interesting.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:01:57] Um the way I started basically was uh I I I was asking myself which trade could I go into that would yield the best outcome that I could make the most money off of. And I arrived at electrician. So I signed up and I I believe you have your uh electrical license, don't you? Y yeah, so so
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:02:16] I do not licensed, I'm not licensed. I went to vocational school and I have three years experience in industrial.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:02:23] Yeah, so you know what it takes to get licensed, right? Uh so so yeah, so basically I signed up as an apprentice and I started working for this this guy I knew, he had a company, and he signed me up as an apprentice and I started working for him. And uh it took I lasted about uh I would say a month, maybe maybe two months, and I quickly realized that there was
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:02:26] I do, I do. It's not easy.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:02:52] To provide for a family of six you uh you need to do a little more than um do an apprenticeship as an electrician. And there was shall we say there was too much month left at the end of the money, if you will. Yeah. And uh and so
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:03:01] Yes. The money, yeah. Absolutely, dude. Not that that's funny and when you're in that circumstance. That's scary and intense, but just the line it makes sense, right? Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:03:19] Yeah, absolutely. It was um it was quite a ride. So what I did is I kind of pivoted and I was like, Okay, what else can I do? And I was and then I started, you know, taking on leads whatever I can. I was doing what we will call door knocking. I was going door to door and offering handyman services and I was like on apps like Nextdoor and Thumbtack and and Craigslist and taking on leads. I was kind of the Hush I would say it, uh the the ready fire aim guy. I was I was gonna take on a job and then figure out how I'm gonna do it. Yeah. It was uh and that was that was that took me and that that earned me a lot more money than than the apprenticeship at electrician and and I started growing from there. And then uh then I I
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:03:55] You were hustling, man. You were you were hustling. Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:04:14] I took on anything. I took on roofing, decks, lawn care, interior, sheetrock, uh flooring, whatever I could get my hands on. And I started working then for there was a guy in the south of town here, and I did a I basically did a deck for him. Um I refinished the deck for him, sanded it down, and he turns out he was a Middle Eastern guy who was a banker. And he sat me down and he became sort of a Sort of a short-term mentor for me in helping me set myself up for success. He was like, You need you need to find a secure credit card to start building credit. And you need some kind of banking history. And and he helped me out a lot. And um, and so from there I was like, and he told me, you also need an LLC. You're already doing the work.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:04:56] Interesting.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:05:11] All you need to do is structure your business in such a way where it's sustainable, where it where you can actually uh grow into something that's that's more sustainable than just running after leads and doing doing leads and and being in and out everywhere. And so I did. I set up my LLC and I was like, what am I gonna call myself? What name can I use? And the guy who helped me set it up was like well what do you do and I said I do everything so I started out with the name intelligent solutions so and I was like look we can have an intelligent solution as a as a rougher as a siding guy as a lawn care interior exterior anything it can be anything so I started that out and and turns out I was it turns out that uh was a little bit of a mistake because
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:05:49] Okay. I dig it. Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:06:07] People were mistaking me as an IT guy. And and that was the only thing I didn't do. And uh
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:06:10] Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody searches or looks at a business card, they're like, what does this guy do? He he's he work on computers?
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:06:20] Yeah, he works on computers and that was specifically the one thing I didn't do. And and so um uh
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:06:25] Right? That was of all the trades you had, all the skills you had worked on. No, I can't fix your computer.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:06:32] Hehehehe
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:06:34] That's funny, dude.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:06:35] Yeah, so um so I was um then I took on a job. Um I'm gonna go into the details of a few jobs that I did that were significant to my road to success. Anyhow, I took on a job. It was a driveway. So it was a concrete driveway, it was an inclined driveway and uh apron on the boulevard. So I was taking on took on that job.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:06:50] Please.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:07:03] And it was going to be me and one other guy and the homeowner who are going to do the driveway basically. And anyhow, we had it planned out. We're gonna get there at 6 a.m. At 10 a.m. The concrete's gonna show up, and by noon we're done. We have it bull floated, we have it broomed, done. But problem with that was the concrete showed up three hours early, and we hadn't had anything for now. It was a hot summer day. And that stuff set up on us quick. I mean, it was a hot load of concrete and it was setting up on us. And we decided, we made a decision that probably wouldn't make again. Is um we'll we'll unload the concrete and while two guys are gonna form up the driveway and we'll float that thing out and broom it and it's gonna be good. So um
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:07:56] W one guy's gonna brew 'em as fast as two guys can set up.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:08:01] It was a mess. I mean we we but we got it yeah, but we got it done. I still drive by that today um nowadays ever so often and and I admire the work on it because we got it done. We had a guy stand on the bull float and two guys were pushing him across just to float it out and we got the broom on and it turned out great. Anyhow, there was a there was a guy at the end of the street who was a custom home builder.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:08:03] It was a disaster. That's amazing.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:08:31] And he built many, many custom homes. It was out in Stillwater. And he saw the whole thing and he was like, uh he had a field day on our account. He was uh he was he was having fun with it. And at the end he came over and he said, you know, guys, if if you guys want work, I got work. I got you you come work for us. It uh absolutely.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:08:37] He saw the whole setup and he's like, What are those guys doing? Yeah. I like your style, he said. What a guy. Yeah, absolutely.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:08:59] And uh and so I did. I was I was still running from job to job and I was like, hey, if I can work for one contractor, that's good. And I said Yeah, and and I went down and talked to him and he said, Okay, what can I do? I asked him. And he said, Well, what do you wanna do? I have cabinets to install and flooring to install. No, cabinets and interior trim. So
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:09:07] That makes tons of sense.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:09:24] He started me out, I bought a few air compressors and a few nailers and I started out trimming. And if if you've ever been to Stillwater, those custom homes on the outskirts of Stillwater, they're they're massive. I I mean we did eight foot double double hung um barn doors, pocket doors, we did grand staircases. It was it was me and a few other guys that came on and and we were just I was starv we were. trying to start it out and after a few houses we were like I was like uh this is this is just too tough. I'm not geared to do this kind of finish work and and I decided I'm gonna pivot a little. I'm gonna ask him if he has any flooring jobs to do and he said yeah go on. There's give me a quote for a floor and you can do the flooring for me. So I did. I gave him a few estimates. I came in, maybe I came in a little low, maybe, maybe he just liked my work, but he he hired me as a flooring contractor. And I did, I don't know, I did eight homes for him. And I'm telling you, you do eight homes by yourself flooring. My knees just couldn't take it. It was it was brutal on my knees. And I was like, I have to.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:10:46] Hard. Hard on the body.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:10:50] It's it it was rough and I was like, okay, I need to pivot again. This isn't I'm gonna this is killing me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey. Anyhow, I asked him if he wanted if he would let me do a shower for him. A few b tile bathrooms. I I figured, okay, that's not so hard on the knees and I could set tile and and he said, Yeah, give me a price and
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:10:57] That's a young man's game. That's that Florida saying that's a young man's game.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:11:18] And so I certify myself to do some waterproofing. Um there's uh educational program you have to go through for that for that. And then I certain myself certify myself as a tile setter and I started doing um he gave me a a dog wash to to tile out, okay. Once you tile it out, we'll flood test it and we'll see how it goes. And so I took off running with that and uh and and After that, he gave me a shower. He gave me probably five or I don't know. I probably did 15 showers for him. And it everything was going great until one day he calls me up. He's bankrupt. He's going bankrupt. It's over. And he went bank. This was during COVID. So he he went out of business. And I never got paid for a few jobs. Everybody took a loss, and I did too. And
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:11:52] Wow. No. What a letdown.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:12:15] That yeah, that uh that got me right back into door knocking, into looking for leads and going on Thumbtack again and next door and and all those places and it's it's tiring to hunt down leads and I was looking for some kind of a break. And and of course, it's hard to add I wanted to zoom in on one j one trade as opposed to doing everything. I wanted to do only tile and maybe some flooring, which I still do. But it was it's super hard to get delete. Um I love tile
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:12:49] Why did you pick tile? Can I Can I ask why tile? When you he 'cause you had all that experience you love it.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:12:57] You know, I love tile. I absol I absolutely fell in love with the trade. There's so much and also it's a skill trade, right? It's not something you learn in school. It's something you have to make your mistakes and you have to learn how to how the sauce work, learn how uh le learn how each tile acts different and it's just something that
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:13:05] Yes it is. No.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:13:20] The industry isn't uh there's not many good tile guys around, and it's not something you can learn in school, really. And and I I got a demand. The demand was there, um, which I later found out there was an incredible demand for tile. You'd be surprised, Ryan. There's there's probably a million and a half homes here in the Twin Cities. Most of them have two or three showers. Um and and
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:13:25] That's interesting.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:13:48] A lot of them one shower isn't working. It's basically they I'll use the di the other bathroom. And when the second one gives problem, they call me in and I'm like, we haven't used these showers for this shower for for years. You'd be surprised how often I run into that. So the demand drove me there, and I also love the trade because it wasn't uh a skill it was a skilled trade as opposed to one you could learn in school. So
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:14:14] Yeah, that makes sense.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:14:17] I I was still having a hard time establishing myself, finding good leads and and and going off of those leads, and I was kind of still winging it, you know. I wasn't finding my leads in my specific field. Then I ran across a company uh out of Tulsa, Oklahoma. I don't know if you've ever heard of them. I ran across an advertisement for them and I called them up, and it was a a company called Redmond Growth.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:14:28] Yes. I have not.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:14:48] And they basically take a comp a guy like myself who has a startup company and they help me establish myself. And it yes, yes, absolutely. I I paid them for two months and they were uh they were bi-weekly phone calls. They they they built out my website, so that's where my website came from. Um what they did is they they
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:14:57] Some venture capital type of investment partnership.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:15:14] said okay let's drop the whole intelligence solutions thing and let's go with something yeah it chopped up that bread and and let's go with something that uh that advertises right so they came up I wanted to do tile and flooring so they said if you're driving 60 miles an hour alone down the interstate you need people need to know what you're doing and and then we came up with
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:15:17] They got you off that brand. Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:15:42] With the logo. It's basically this logo. That's what they designed it. Um and it it it's simple and it pops out at people and and I love it. Um and they designed my and they listed me on Google, did um and they helped me establish Google reviews and that's brought in all the leads I need. Um what they also did for me, Ryan, is they set me up with templates, right? They set me up with
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:15:44] It's nice, dude. It's really nice. Yes.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:16:11] uh spreadsheet after spreadsheet of um here's what here's for example the hiring process you want to hire somebody here's the questions you need to ask here's what you need to focus on here's what she need he or she needs to be good at and they helped me hire on my first um uh uh secretary to answer my phone. I gave her a separate phone and she answers the calls and and and they gave me basically put in a protocol for um hiring for leads they helped me track my leads so you you ask yourself yeah exactly exactly and and and since then I mean I yes and yes and and me being a a blue collar guy I I I wasn't really good with with any kind of a system I was just
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:16:46] They built you a system. They built you a system. We talk about systems on this show all the time, bro. I love systems. They're so critical.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:17:07] I mean lead in, lead out. If you accept it, you do. If you don't, you don't. And they said no, you need to throttle this back and say, you got a phone call, where did this lead stall out? Where did you f where did this lead fail? Fail. And it and and and that became a journey for me is to making sales and being more precise as to how I run my business, as opposed to just lead in, lead out, money in, money out. I was going to
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:17:17] Those are the questions.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:17:36] hone in on everything and and they set me up on that. So shout out to them.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:17:39] Zack is singing to my heart. Shout out to them indeed. Because let me let me just jump in and make a quick point here and what I've been doing for a lot of years with AI stuff and what I as a I'm a I'm I'm kind of a crossover between tech and trades with my history. And I think it there's a real genuine gap for guys because I I I think it really comes down to we all agree people are different, right? Brains are wired different, humans are different, and I think guys and women that do trades. have a brain that operates a certain way. And it makes them really, really good at that trade. You know what I mean? The mechanical, the hands, however you want to describe it. And I think that that brain type really, really, really has a difficult time wrapping their brain around that side of the business. And and and conceptualizing how that helps them get to the part that they do all day, every day. Like when I hear you talk about how much you like tile and like you like the skill of it, right? And knocking doors and that hustle that's
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:18:15] Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:18:36] That's a completely different way to operate and it's a completely different skill set than what it sounds like they brought to your business. But it's hypercritical to have both of those. And correct me if I'm wrong, because it sounds like it had a lot of success when you applied that systematic layer to all of your process, right? And it probably brought you a lot of peace, a lot of success, a lot less worry, a lot less stress, and it allows you to do what you're good at.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:18:39] Uh. Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And and and it brings a system into place that helps you fix the problems. I was I was getting a ton of phone calls, leads coming in, and they were stalling out for the first while those leads were stalling out at a certain point. At a certain point, and it allows you, I was like, it and it and a lot of people assume that leads fail at the price point where well they didn't accept my price. That's that's oftentimes not true. And I was
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:19:05] Yes. Agreed. One hundred percent.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:19:29] Once they s so once Redmond Growth started me out, you know, you need to two a week later after you send the estimate, call him up and give him a courtesy phone call because your leads are stalling out over here. Give him a that second phone call and m put a check mark next to the next to you've called them twice. My leads picked up a number of percentage. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I I
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:19:50] Conversion rate went way up, I bet. Your conversion rate. You started converting way more leads.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:19:59] Da that system was now they with the system that they have in place, I'm now booked out weeks in advance. I've done some pretty high profile jobs. You might uh you might like that I uh do you follow sports at all?
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:20:13] I have in the past. I'm less of a sports guy these days, but I'm very I'm very still educated on the topic.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:20:19] So there's a so the Minnesota Timberwolves star Anthony Edwards, you know him. So I I redid his floor in his house. Yeah. Yeah. Oh absolutely. Absolutely. Only problem what just through my Google account they saw my reviews and they uh and they were they were going like after the reviews and and that's it. They they just uh appreciated my work.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:20:22] Yes, I do. Really? That's a nice gig, dude. I bet that's a nice gig for sure. How did that lead come in? Wow, hear that people? Hey, I think that that's super important to double click on because I think any contractor out in the at least I and I think it's nationwide from the way I look at the tech thing, contractors should understand how s like not only is it simple, like it I say it's simple, but it might it that from a technical aspect it does take a little setup, but getting your Google profile dialed in and Doing a like a weekly or even a monthly post, sending the picture to that one time and then making sure that you follow up and get those reviews. I don't think people understand just how powerful that is for contractors. And it seems to be like it's powerful for lots of businesses, but contractors, it seems to make a major, major difference. Because if you get not just it doesn't even necessarily matter the number, but it's recency. How many have you had lately, five star wise? And then when you're on that map.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:21:28] Absolutely.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:21:40] That's where people they call and they buy. They call and they buy. And it's just a really nice thing to update. Yes, when you stay active, a lot of guys hit a certain point, they get busy and they chill out on it. But like if anybody contractor wise listening to this is like you need more business and you're wondering how to get more leads, I would highly recommend looking into setting in your setting up your Google Business Profile because it's so effective. And it doesn't cost you anything really. It's not like spending money on ads, right? It's free and then you post pictures.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:21:44] Mm-hmm. Staying active on there is important. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I stay I stay uh busy as as much as I want to, just with the Google listing and with referrals. And between those two, I I don't ha I haven't paid for a lead in in f in in years. And and one good way of staying active on the Google profile is when somebody does write re your review, it's important that you reply to it in a positive way. Even if it's a even if it's a negative review.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:22:18] Yes. Good for you. Yes, well said.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:22:36] Just reply in a positive way and and Google keeps pushing you up. It's it's a well oiled machine.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:22:41] Yes. It really is. And they have uh I've put a couple together for contractors and uh Google has made it there was a stretch last summer in particular where a lot of accounts that had been sitting stale and inactive got bans. Uh Google with the AI wave, because people have gotten so good at creating content um and how much garbage there is out there with AI, people Google went through a a phase last summer where contractors got hit really hard.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:22:55] Mm-hmm.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:23:08] on Google profile. They basically revamped the system. And I only bring up that negative part because once they got to the other side of that, I think they really did a good job of addressing what you're talking about. So contractors that are active, that are responding to their reviews, that are getting a couple reviews per month, really start to push up the ranking, like you said. So taking care of that Google's Google business profile, a lot of guys are like, well, I got five reviews. I can't beat these 50 guys from my city. No, you can.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:23:31] Mm-hmm.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:23:37] You really can get up there fast if you're doing exactly what you just said. If you respond to the comments, you follow up for the reviews. You know what I mean? I think it's super powerful tool to people acknowledge how important that is.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:23:39] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I actually um have somebody that uh I have a brother here in town who who got kicked off AI kicked him off because uh for a time there he had to get relisted because he was um uh he was kind of shifting into lawn from uh deck builder into lawn care and and Google immediately saw that okay, you're outside of this listing here. As soon as he got a review or whatever, he they just kicked him. AI is basically controlling it now. So it's it's monitored more closely.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:24:16] Correct. And it is monitored closely. And there there was a period of time there where any I had to follow up for a a guy that I helped out. I had to follow up for months. Months. You know what I mean? Like once you get banned on that, it for a while there it was tough. I I feel like I've talked to a couple different guys, they've cleaned it up. You get you can get those things. The AI has gotten better basically. But there was a an ugly dark period there where like if you changed a if you added a city to your coverage zone, ban, Google profile shut down. So
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:24:28] Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:24:45] But it's cleaned up. I don't I think people should be less scared of that or anybody that's had that issue, um, yeah, it's it's it's gotten better. It's gotten very good.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:24:52] Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:24:57] So you got those jobs then. You made this amazing transition with this venture capital company. It's a pretty interesting story, dude, to go from knocking doors to, you know, uh getting on with a custom home builder because of a concrete truck that showed up three hours early and you guys were flying by the seat of your pants, working your butts off, and uh ended up getting a nice plug. And then he goes bankrupt during COVID.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:25:07] Yeah. Yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:25:21] And you're back to knocking doors. Like you thought you had been past that phase and then you had to get back to it. And then the venture thing came along. And I think normally what we talk about on here is like what makes you good. I think it's pretty clear. I think correct me if I'm wrong, you uh please add on here, but like the fact that you focus on it as a skill. I think guys that specialize in their one trade, that's something that really sh stands out when winning jobs. What else do you think is winning you jobs out there? You talked about your Google profile and having good lead quality, you've got the system now.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:25:22] Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great question. I uh I've spent a lot of time uh uh thinking about okay, what makes a sale successful, right? Like if you go up to a homeowner, the homeowner's never met you. He's never he doesn't he's never s really seen your work um in person. And uh what makes this one homeowner accept this client and it is accept this contractor and not this one? And I've done basically Um I I I've spun it down to two basic uh principles, shall I say. Uh should I introduce you to my to kind of what I use as a sales as a s as a um as a sales profile? Basically I there's the there's the practical side and then there's the psychological side of a sale. And on the practical side, it's it is actually very practical. There there's nothing complicated about it, but if you miss
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:26:36] Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:26:54] The practical steps, it it's gonna fail you. And what I have in place is what I call the on the practical side, the four principles of a successful sale. And I call it A, B, C, D. And I teach this to all my guys, to whoever works for me or with me, and I practice it myself: A, B, C, D. Appearance, Behavior, Communication, and Digital Footprint. Now
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:27:15] Okay.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:27:23] Appearance is where it starts. Like, do you look the part? You you're gonna you're gonna offer somebody a twenty-five thousand dollar bathroom remodel, you have to look the part. You need I Ryan, I have seen some of my helpers and some of the pe uh helpers on other construction sites, people showing up in pajamas, pjs, and flip-flops. You you have to look apart. A rusty, a beat up truck.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:27:43] The rusty beat up truck. uh
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:27:50] People are not gonna outsource their work to somebody who doesn't look the part. So appearance is important. Then there's the behavior. Like when you show up at somebody's door, how do you act? How do you react? Do you do you are you respectful of the client's floors? Are you respectful of their pets and of their of their children? Are you respectful of the how do you behave towards your client when you show up first at a job so at a at a at a client at a quote? And then there's the communication part. And you've spoken on your podcast about communication, how key that is. You know, if you're gonna be ten if you're gonna be ten minutes late, are you gonna leave the client hanging or are you gonna communicate the fact that you're gonna okay, there's traffic. I'll be ten minutes late. See you soon. And those those small clo details are just super important to clients. Very important.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:28:26] Yes. Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:28:47] And then there's what we talked about the digital footprint, where it's the 21st century. You need to have uh either a LinkedIn profile, a Google account, or uh a Google listing, or a website, something that gives you a digital profile. And if those four boxes are checked, I've seen my sales skyrocket just by checking those boxes. We haven't mentioned anything about price, and we've already gotten a big increase.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:28:49] Yes. Yes.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:29:17] in in our sales. Then there's the then there's the psychological part. There's a few aspects to that. I would say. Uh one of them is um if it's kind of I I sometimes geek out a little bit in psychology because it's it's super interesting to
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:29:33] You're I'm like holding back. You're geeking with me, dude. I'm I'm geek away, please.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:29:38] So so when you give a so there's a phenomenon in psychology where where whenever you choose something and the choice is easy, your mind chooses. If you have three options, that's an easy choice. But whenever you have 10 15, let's suppose we have a shower shelf here. I have 15 different shower shelves that I offer. I could say to the client, here are 15 shower shelves you choose. When you give a client too many options, they go from choosing into worrying. And once they're in that worrying phase, they worry about making the wrong decision. And that oftentimes results in making no decision at all. So what I would do is this here are two shower shelves. And if they say, Let me look at another one, and I would say, Before we add another one, which one of these two can we remove so we can add another one?
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:30:34] I love that. I love that dude.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:30:37] It uh uh the guy I worked I I worked for s under somebody years and years ago when I was part of the community and he said keep it simple because it is and that's that's really the key. If you keep it simple for them.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:30:50] The the the I've he I've just heard the KISS acronym get used across industries and across a number of sales trainings. The uh K I S S. Keep it simple, stupid. You know what I mean? Same idea, yeah, yeah, yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:31:01] Yeah, yeah. Same same principle. So yeah, so so basically you keep you keep that client in the choosing phase and out of the worrying phase, your sales are gonna skyrocket. It's it's um impressive how these this is a method I've tried and tested and I'm telling you what works. Another one another one would be um uh uh a study that I that I came across in the journal of applied social uh uh social psychology it's a journal out of New York and basically what they did is they took um uh a restaurant and took a thousand uh studied it on a thousand people at a time a thousand um people come in and eat and they give them a check uh give them their bill and they gave them no mints and that was their base group So from there they went off. This is the control group now. So from there they went off and said, okay, now we'll put a mint on the table with the bill. And sale um uh tips increased three percent. Now what they did was just off of one mint. Now what one mint, now they did a thousand people and added two mints, and their sales increased by fourteen percent.
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:32:14] Just off of mints. Oh one minute. Okay. Okay. The sales now, before before we were talking about the tip, the the tips, the tips went up 14% with one more mint. Okay, continue.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:32:30] Now watch this. No, not the sales, the the tips. The the tips. 14%. Now watch this. What they did then is they they they took the bill on the third group of people and they set one mint with the with the bill onto the table. They walked away two tables, turned around, came back and said, here's another mint because of a nice guy you are, or something to that effect. Their sales increased by
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:33:02] Sure.
MSP Tile and Flooring [00:33:05] twenty or their tips increased by twenty-four percent. Twenty-four percent. It it fascinated me. And and and I think the principle is simple here. When you're generous with a person, they tend to kind of you it's kind of like, have you ever eaten at five guys?
Reasonable Tech Dad [00:33:09] What the Oh, yeah. And I think the principle is simple here. When you're generous with a person, they tend to kind of... It's kind of like... Have you ever eaten at Five Guys? Yes. Alright, fire away my friends. So we were talking about, ah we picked up on the 24 % tips. Like I went like this and I bumped my microphone and that's that's screwed up everything. So we went from one no mints as a baseline, one mint update, made tips go up 3%. Two mints made it go up 14%, leaving 15%, and then one mint, and then coming back and saying, here's another mint for being such a nice guy, made it go up 24 %? Oh. uh
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:10:35]
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:10:44] I have. I like their burgers. The fries, they go crazy. You order a large fry and you get a sack. You get like a sack of fries.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:10:51]
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:11:09] Yes. Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:11:21] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yes.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:11:56] some good humility. I like that.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:11:58] Yeah. Three percent. Yes. 24%. And what it did what it and and what it does is it shows you when people get something that they feel like they didn't pay for, if they get more than what they paid for, then they feel so much more obligated to be kind and generous to other people. Have you ever eaten at the five guys restaurant?
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:12:30] Yes, 100 % it is, dude. That's amazing. I love that, I think that that's, you, I love when people bring geek out. So like I've done a lot of different sales trainings and I haven't heard that ABCD. I've heard those different components used in different capacity elsewhere, but appearance, behavior, what was the C?
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:12:47] It so they do the t they they do uh uh and you get the whole sack full of fries. They do the exact same thing and I was wondering why. And then I started applying it on my business. So um so basically what they do is they say, Okay, you want a large fries, then they fill up the bag with fries. You feel like you're getting way more fries than you ordered and that you paid for, but in all reality it was built into the burger, I'm sure.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:12:55] communication, and then digital footprint. That's really well put together. Yes.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:13:13] But uh but so what I would do to clients is I would say, Look, I gave you a quote for building out a shower and I do this with a with a genuinely generous heart. If they have hooks to hang or shower shelves to hang or something to it, I'll just say I won't be upcharging at every turn. And I won't. I'll if you come along to me and say, Look, I want a shower shelf in the corner, I'll hang it for you, and I won't do an upcharge. I stay away from upcharges as much as I can and
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:13:19] Yeah, it sounds like it, dude. That's amazing. So then turning towards the not so sunshine happy part, what is challenging still about MSP Tile? I wouldn't say dread, but what parts are still stressful and difficult for you? Is it on digital side? Is it on execution side? Where are the pinch points for you right now? I'm sure you know, because it sounds like you're the analytical guy now with the system.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:13:43] Ryan, this is a lot of a lot of my five star Google reviews, I have a number of them. And I I'm I'm gonna tell you, I'm not much better of a tile guy than the next guy. In all reality. There's good tile guys out there and I I feel like I'm good and and I don't feel like I'm better than anybody else, but what I do give the client is is I give them the feeling
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:14:08] Yes.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:14:10] that they've gotten what they've paid for. And if and if they're not satisfied, I'll either refund them or I'll fix my problems and I and I'll always leave them happy and satisfied no matter what kind of a service I bring. And when you give this extra generosity, it's usually reciprocated.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:14:22] Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:14:36] Yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:14:42] Yeah
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:14:53] C communication. And that's right. I kind of made it up myself. I mean, I heard the principles and I was like, how can I make this simple? Remember keep it simple because it is. And um it just keeping it simple so I can teach it and I can actually remember it for myself. And and it served me well. It has served me well.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:15:21] Yeah.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:15:25] Yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:15:34] I do. Yes.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:15:47] Well, yeah, absolutely. Um, I think my still with the advent of AI and what AI can do, uh I we guys that are more into the trade end of it are still whatever Redmond Growth set up for me years ago is still the same it hasn't evolved, right? But I would say I would say that's not much of a challenge for me. A challenge for me I would say still is the hiring process.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:16:00] Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, there's no getting around it. And it's hard to gauge that upfront. It's not, it's not, cause I, we've talked about on this show multiple times about, well, we had a real good episode a couple of weeks ago where we were talking about walking away from jobs when it's not a good fit. And.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:16:15] Right, I see I I talk to guys out of college that don't know how to read a tape measure. I these kids, it's hard to hire I mean, if you're going to if you're going to hire somebody on with the way the IRS is structured and all the struggles of a business, to hire on a guy, you have to make seventy five to a hundred dollars an hour off of an employee before it's profitable. I mean, you need insurance for him, you need
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:16:26] making that diagnosis early on and making sure that like, like maybe I'm not the contractor for you. And I think that some people might get into, you know, passing judgment and those kinds of things. And I'm sure being from the Anabaptist background, may still or may not still have something of faith and people get like reservations about passing judgment. But when we're talking about business, ah
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:16:44] to to pay the taxes on him. And that's hard to do with with especially in a skilled trade like my own where where it's all trained and hands on. And it's hard training people in and hiring them on. I I've I've found that very complicated, especially with uh with the with with with the people that we have around here who aren't much of tradesmen growing up. They're more
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:16:48] There's things like that that'll cost you money and hurt your business and hurt the way that you can care for people and care for your other customers if you are working with the wrong clients that are wasting time and money problems when a lot of times they're being unreasonable. And that's just, that's the truth. Some people are unreasonable in their, not only their expectations, but their communication and the things that are needed from the homeowner to make a job go smooth.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:17:12] more into the white colour um into the white collar end of things and it's it's it's that's been a challenge for me. Um I would say another challenge for me has been and and maybe this isn't exclusive to tile itself is complicated homeowners. You're a project manager you probably know this. It ho some homeowners are just challenging to work with. I mean
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:17:25] Same.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:17:38] You can do a good job for him, but they're just some they're just hard to please some people and and that's been that's been a challenge. So I kind of earlier we talked about a digital footprint. It's important that clients that you work for also have a digital footprint so you know what you're up against when going and working for them. Um it some some some are just some homeowners are just challenging.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:17:54] Interesting. They're looking for something to do and somebody to manage.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:18:09] And and and it's Yeah, yeah, and you don't
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:18:19] Good for you. I like that, man. That's a really nice selection. I haven't heard that. Most guys would be like, oh, you're trying to spend money. I'm here. OK, no, continue. Go on that thread. Double click on that. What do you mean? What kind of threads? Or I'm sorry, what kind of jobs?
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:18:25] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:18:36] Or was that the one you were referring to? Oh, I think we just got caught in some lag there, but I think ah just elaborating on the types of jobs, maybe you were just talking about the ones that are more vanity focused versus need. Are there other jobs that you filter out based on kind of, okay. So then you filter that out.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:19:03] Mm-hmm.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:19:04] Go ahead.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:19:13] Yeah. Uh ac I am still a man of faith and I and my faith is actually helping me in this aspect because I I I seek to serve the people that I'm around. But not only that, if there's a some if there's some uh lady in a suburb who just wants a facelift on her shower and I'm going to do a a thirty thousand dollar remodel on a bathroom that just there's nothing wrong with it. She just doesn't like the color of it. I'll uh I'll respectfully decline to send an estimate on it. I'd rather go into a shower where there's actually a fail, where the shower pan has actually failed, where there's actually a problem and a need that I can fix. Because oftentimes those clients that just have m the the hole is burning the money is burning a hole in their pockets, as we say, and and it's um and they just wanna spend the money to get a facelift. I it it Exactly, exactly. And
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:19:59] I love that dude, I'm good for you to build your business that way and truly be of service when it comes, when people are dollars the donuts. You're actually out there trying to take care of people that need it dude, that's amazing.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:20:11] And I just I I just prefer not to work for those kinds of people. I'll rather work for somebody who has a legitimate need. Yeah, it's and and yeah, staying away from certain jobs is
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:20:27] Amen, sir. Amen.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:20:29] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it is a and and it
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:20:32] Yeah, dude, I love that. I absolutely love that for you. I think people might underestimate just how much the money takes care of itself when you are out in the world trying to be of service every day. A lot of some of the most successful people I admire follow that same kind of philosophy of if you spend enough time helping enough people, a lot of the stuff you need is just going to be taken care of. And it's funny how that works, right?
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:20:37] And and it is a problem. Which one? Exactly. Um it it it I think a I think the worst mistake we can make is basically running after the money. Once you start running after money and going to the more profitable jobs, you tend to you tend to get lost a little bit where i I would rather focus on a needs base versus a um versus uh the most economic. And uh right in this trade there's there's a lot of money to be made. It doesn't have to become your primary focus. And I will
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:21:31] Yes, Yes, sir. Amen to that, Oh, I think that's a good spot to transition to final question, dude. I mean, I think you already touched on it in the challenging and hiring. ah Talk to the next generation. How do we get them in the trades? Tell them why it's good. You just said there's tons of money to be made. We need you. There's lots of reliability. There's flexibility. Tell the next generation why they need to be getting into the trades.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:21:33] And I will also when I work for certain homeowners, if I see there's a single mom with children, I'll give them the better price. I it's it money isn't it it's important, but it's not the most important. Like I have enough flexibility in my quotes to say, look, if you're a struggling mom, if you're an uh elderly person, I'll gladly I'll gladly, you know, give you the much cheaper rate. Yeah. Absolutely. And and I think it ties in a a lot with people's faith and and what they actually believe in. And if they truly believe they're bringing value to people's homes instead of um instead of just just the trade. So I I wanna I wanna bring value to the home and value to the person's life.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:22:25] Yeah!
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:22:33] Yeah. Um Absolutely, absolutely. I think there is there is a strong principle behind that behind you know if if d if you karma takes care of a lot of things, your your faith, if if you believe, if you truly believe that that there's a higher power taking care of you, then it's no longer you making the sale, but it's God in place of
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:23:18] Yeah? Yeah! Yeah! Go for it!
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:23:29] of all your programs.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:23:42] Good advice. I think you've already told the story. Like, you were doing fine and things got pulled, the rug got pulled off from you. You reset twice. You told us two stories about resetting twice in the last hour. And things shook up. You know what I mean? Like, it works out. Look at you smiling about it. I'm sure it wasn't always smiles, but you smile now, right? And that's okay.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:23:50] Yeah. I would say um I would say why they should. Um I I'm not I mean, obviously it's with AI coming up as you talked about it, the d the trades aren't going anywhere. Like it they're gonna be here and there's a lot of money to be made in it. And w the advice I would have for somebody starting out is if you're a college kid and you wanna start out in the trades, find a mentor. Find somebody who does it well. And and and you know, if you're living with mom, work for him for minimum wage and just learn from him, just learn everything you can from him and and just walk behind him. It's going to serve you well growing up and and going into the trades. And for those guys who are starting their own business, I would say don't be afraid to lose money. You lose money.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:24:34] Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's. That's exactly it. Don't be afraid to learn. The common theme here, kids. Don't be afraid to learn. Let learning and failure be the thing that gets you where you want, because we all have these dreams about how we want things. We want to be comfortable. We want to have families. We want to have money. We want to have things. And all of that's fine. But don't be scared to go out and fail and be willing to learn for a while and not have all those things. Have some patience would be my... Have some patience in learning.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:24:54] Uh that's no question. Everybody loses money. Don't be afraid of the job that's f that's going south on you. It'll be all right. As your business grows and as you expand and the longer you're in business, those jobs where you actually lose money become spaced out more, fewer and farther in between. And I think a lot of people are just scared. They're just too scared. And go out on a limb. Go out on it it's okay. It's okay to
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:25:10] and let those things that you want come with time and let the learning come first because that can't be taken away from you. You've already told us the story. The money can be taken away. The jobs can be taken away. Things can go wrong, but that learning, those failures, that's still there.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:25:23] Have a job that goes south on you. You oh absolutely. Absolutely. And and they're like, Well, what if I fa fear of failure? Fear scarcity and lack is is uh uh the best way to make a wrong head of decision is what I always say.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:25:26] The person you become when you make those failures, there's not much better places to do it than the trades. So ah Zack, this has been amazing, dude. Like what a cool story. From farmers, the farming piece is just, that's interesting. That's a new one for the podcast and I love it, dude. And it's the failures and the door knocking, like that's.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:25:54] And it's been fun. Yeah. And I and and I No, it's i it was fun. I mean, it's all part of growth. I learned a lot. I I mean I I learned a lot on th on those adventures. I mean, even when somebody when the contractors goes bankrupt, uh so you go your job goes on paid, you learn to file a lien on a property and and the the ups and downs, the repercussions about that, it's It's all part of the it's all part of the game and you learn. You learn. There's no other way of doing it. In the trades you have to make your mistakes to learn.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:26:31] that dude I don't know if I'm cutting out you still got me uh All right, perfect. All right, Zack, we'll wrap there. Thank you so much for coming on, and thanks for telling us your story, dude. And you got any places you want people to go, speaking of digital footprints, can we send them anywhere, and where should we put the links for you?
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:26:41] Yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad [01:26:55] Anyway, do the website. ah Yeah, you're sitting good anyway. More boat time. All right, Zack, we'll talk more later. Thanks again, All right, sir. Appreciate you. Thank you, Bye.
MSP Tile and Flooring [01:26:59] Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah. I and and and that's only b Yeah. And that's only the beginning. But I feel like I mean I I think everybody needs to bring their business to a point where they can feel like, okay, I can plateau at this point and be okay. I think that's where I'm at. Where i uh I'm not concerned about growth as much anymore. I'm I'm concerned about just maintaining what I have and I generate a good revenue and and uh peop people need to realize this also. It's not about getting fifteen trucks on the road and m stressing your life out. There's uh uh you need to spend more time on the boat, no? Uh, just anywhere. I mean wherever. I mean I'll be good anyway, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I hear ya. Oh okay. Oh, it's good speaking to you, Ryan. Bye bye.