Erik Ellefson owns Topline Electric in Rosemount, Minnesota. Five electricians, three crews rolling into four, a full-time CSR and a second office hire on the way. He got into electrical through PSEO at 17, finished his degree one semester after high school, and built the kind of shop where the values on the website actually match the guy running it.
The heart of this episode is the estimate system he rebuilt about a year ago. Most contractors quote one price, email it over, and wait. Erik realized that gives the customer exactly two choices, you or somebody else. So he went to six options on nearly every estimate, two for each buying tier, presented in person with both spouses at the table. His explanation of why, the truck-buyer versus toilet-paper-buyer theory, is some of the sharpest sales thinking I have heard from a working contractor. The Google reviews back him up: "nobody else even came in here and opened the panel."
We also get into the honest stuff. The winter question every seasonal owner runs in the dark, are we actually slow or did we just hire another guy in the fall? Why the fridge-magnet referral died when Alan retired and everybody started Googling. Posting the real struggles of the business on Facebook because customers can tell when you fake it. And the two numbers every parent should hear: for every five electricians retiring, about three are entering, while demand climbs 10 to 20 percent over the next decade.
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Chapters
- 00:00 - Meet Erik Ellefson, Topline Electric in Rosemount
- 00:45 - Job shadowing, PSEO, and starting electrical at 17
- 04:05 - Five electricians, three crews, rolling into four
- 05:02 - The old way: one option, emailed, then wait
- 05:44 - One price gives the customer only two choices
- 06:53 - Three buying tiers, and why six options beats good-better-best
- 08:58 - More time with fewer customers: the in-person presentation
- 10:50 - "Nobody else even opened the panel"
- 12:12 - Values at the monthly meeting
- 14:40 - The winter problem: are we slow, or did we just hire?
- 15:33 - Alan's magnet on the fridge, and why homeowners Google now
- 16:58 - Posting the real stuff on Facebook
- 18:02 - Social media as the new like-know-trust
- 19:58 - The next generation: 5 retiring, 3 entering, demand up 10 to 20 percent
- 21:39 - Trade school, the union, and the Electrical Association night program
- 24:12 - Try the hands-on thing before you rule it out
- 25:21 - Wrap up
The big takeaways
- One price gives your customer two choices, you or somebody else. Options change the shape of the decision so they choose between your options.
- There are three buying tiers, and nobody sits in just one. The same guy is a high-end truck buyer and a cheapest-thing toilet paper buyer. Six options, two per tier, means you never have to guess.
- Present the estimate in person, both spouses home. The time you put in is the close, and the Google reviews follow.
- The fridge-magnet referral is dead. Alan retired, homeowners move constantly, and they find their electrician on Google and Facebook now. Your presence is your referral.
- Post the real stuff. Values, employee spotlights, the hard parts of the business. Customers can tell when it is true.
- The trades math favors the young: electricians are retiring faster than they are being replaced while demand grows on top of it.
Full Transcript
Reasonable Tech Dad (00:01) Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the Reasonable Contractor podcast. My name is Ryan Templin, the Reasonable Tech Dad, and I am here with a new friend for us today, and we're going to learn about him together, Mr. Eric Ellifson. Am I saying that right, the last name? You got that K on the Eric. You got that Scandinavian, the Vikings spelling of Eric. And I did a little research, looked on the website, and everybody always talks about quality and value and that kind of stuff. And I think what was unique to yours is you actually said,
Erik Ellefson (00:13) You are, yeah. That's right. 100%.
Reasonable Tech Dad (00:30) if it was something about making sure that our employees have their situation together and good families and something like that. So I thought that was unique, but I guess better you tell a story than me. So I'll pass it over to you. How'd you get started? Tell us your story.
Erik Ellefson (00:45) Yeah, I went to tech school back in like, 08, 09, I think I got out in 09, and Dakota Technical College over here in Rosemount. And I guess to back that up a little bit, my dad had a one man business doing commercial refrigerating and heating and cooling. And so I was aware of business. It never scared me, right? So it's just something I grew up with. He didn't have any sort of a big company or employees or anything, but I knew that I wanted to go into something that I could use my hands somewhat with. I like to see a finished product. And something, you know, sales, people, you know, related. I like talking to people, right? So I was looking at sales. I was looking at a chiropractor. I was looking at nursing. Just like, I just did a lot of job shadowing. one of the suggestions from my dad was we should go job shadow electrician. And so he knew a company that he had worked around and so I did job shadow them twice. And it's kind of one those things where you're young, like, I could probably do this, I could probably do that. You feel like probably good at most things. I don't know, when I job shadowed, probably 17. Something like that, 16, 17. I had got on the waiting list for the electrical program and I was doing PSEO.
Reasonable Tech Dad (02:18) How old were you?
Erik Ellefson (02:35) So I was able to start the electrical program ahead of time before I graduated high school. And then think I just had to go, I think it was just one semester after I graduated high school to finish my degree. So I just thought, you know what, I'm going to do electrical. It seems like a really good trade. My dad was always like, all right, so if you look at any project, a house, whatever, like the electricians are there for the longest period of time.
Reasonable Tech Dad (02:42) sick.
Erik Ellefson (03:01) within reason, but they have a lot of work, right? I mean, sort of drywallers and some other trades too, but if you think of a remodel project, say like a residential remodel project, electrical is gonna be one of your higher subcontractor costs, and they're also probably gonna have the most man hours worth of labor there. first is somebody that comes in and...
Reasonable Tech Dad (03:03) Interesting. That's a cool take. Yeah.
Erik Ellefson (03:27) know, guy comes in lays carpet in one day and he's out, right? Electrician's in there for a week, you know? It's just like per project there's more work, so. So anyway, yeah, went to school for that.
Reasonable Tech Dad (03:32) No, that's cool. That's a good story. My dad kind of said the same thing about the electrician thing and talked about the trades in that kind of way and talked about electrician being a good one for different reasons. how about what's going good in business right now? Obviously you're running well. How many crews do you have? How many people? What's going well for Topline right now? And why?
Erik Ellefson (04:05) Yeah. And why? Well, so we have five electricians. running three crews. We had three journeymen, prentices, and one apprentice just got his license. So now we're going to be rolling into four crews here soon. And I have a full-time office gal, or CSR. And we are just about hiring finishing up the interviewing hiring process for one more to have an additional person in the office. Yeah, so we've kind of revamped a lot of things in the last year just as far as how we present our side to the customer. Just kind of in the, just realizing
Reasonable Tech Dad (04:23) sick. student.
Erik Ellefson (05:02) Most of the time, so I was the main estimator, so would go to a project, you'd say you'd come look at your kitchen, whatever you need done, or your garage, whatever you're getting some work done on, I'd come up with an option, maybe you wanted a variable, what if I had under cabinet lights too? Okay, I'll give you a separate price for that. And then I'd just email you something over later that day, or the next day, right? And then you just wait and see if you hear something. Kind of realizing.
Reasonable Tech Dad (05:24) Sure. Yes. Were you a bottleneck then is that?
Erik Ellefson (05:31) Yeah, that's probably a different subject. I guess where I'm going is like, no, that's okay. Realizing that's really only giving a customer two decisions. The decision is you or somebody else. And if you can give them more than one option, they get to choose this option or that option. So that's why you see a lot of companies go to a good, better, best model.
Reasonable Tech Dad (05:37) Sorry, continue.
Erik Ellefson (06:01) option one, option two, option three, is it helps give the customer more flexibility. Realizing, like I come in, I'm an electrician, I think there is one, most likely one best way that I would do this. It's probably down the middle, it's not over the top, it's not gonna be the cheapest band-aid way of doing it, it's gonna be right down the middle. This is like the best, this is what I would do. I would just do this and that's good, right?
Reasonable Tech Dad (06:29) you were doing it for your own place, this is how I would handle it for me. Yes.
Erik Ellefson (06:31) Right, yep, but that locks them into my vision, what I think is good, and one budget option. So we've revamped things and we're actually coming in and giving people six options in most situations. And so that go, yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad (06:47) Can I ask why you decided that route? How did you come up with that model? Not to cut you off in mid-thought. You're spitting brilliance here.
Erik Ellefson (06:53) Yeah, well so, yeah, no, some people, some people's models, and yeah, this isn't totally my idea, I've got some help with coaching, so it's definitely not my own doing, but the way I've heard it explained is like a lot of companies might do a good, better, best, so three options, and they would say your average, there's kind of three buying,
Reasonable Tech Dad (07:01) You
Erik Ellefson (07:20) buying archetypes out there. So you have your top tier high end buyers, you have your mid level buyers, and you have your economy buyers. And so normally a good, better, best still only gives one option to each of those buying tiers. So if you do six options and you price them correctly, you're kinda giving two options for each buying tier. And you can't walk in there and be like, this person's a high paying,
Reasonable Tech Dad (07:30) Yes. to each sick.
Erik Ellefson (07:48) option person, right? So like, if I'm buying a truck, I'm probably a high tier buyer just because of what I want or whatever, right? But if I'm, you know, gonna buy toilet paper, maybe I'm like way down here, I don't care what Amazon's selling, right? Like, it all depends what you're buying. So you might be a high tier person when it comes to buying your headphones, and I might be a low quality Apple person when it comes to iPhones, right?
Reasonable Tech Dad (08:01) Sure, right. Makes sense. Economy. That's a perfect example, dude. Well said.
Erik Ellefson (08:16) You know? So I can't come into your home and say you buy in this category or that category because that's right, they're good enough. So that's where the six comes from is really trying to get, you you don't know where someone is and giving them six different emotional fixes, physical fixes and
Reasonable Tech Dad (08:21) that was perfect. Why don't you buy these iPods and put those things down?
Erik Ellefson (08:45) budgetary wise, six options to pick from, dollar amount.
Reasonable Tech Dad (08:51) That's so cool. So then continue on the revamp thing. So that was something you changed about a year ago, you said.
Erik Ellefson (08:58) Yeah, that's probably the biggest thing we've done is just spending, I that obviously takes time, right? I'm not just putting together one option, I'm putting together six different options, looking at more things, but we're spending, the goal is to spend more time with, hypothetically, less customers. Spend more time with our customers.
Reasonable Tech Dad (09:05) Yes. Yes.
Erik Ellefson (09:18) So we're doing an in-person visit, putting these options together. If it's something they're trying to make a decision on right away, we'll present to them right away. If they're like, nah, we gotta make a decision on this later anyway, then we'll schedule a follow-up, okay, when would be a good time. Okay, Friday, we'll come out on Friday. Is your spouse available so you can both be here? We'll come out and do a presentation.
Reasonable Tech Dad (09:19) Interesting. still tire kicking.
Erik Ellefson (09:43) and show them here's your six options. We'll walk them through it. If they want something custom, great, whatever, but at least we're not leaving it for them to understand whatever the heck we typed up on a piece of paper and now they have to understand it and explain it to their wife, you know?
Reasonable Tech Dad (09:44) That's awesome dude. Dude. decipher their other options. I feel like if you were to give people six options, if you were to come in and give me six option I'd be like, hey, I don't know if there's nothing else. I don't, I got all the options, right? I feel, I would feel that way. Like some, I'm out of these six options. If I go waste time calling another contractor, getting somebody out here, they're going to be somewhere in this range would be my thought just as you introduce that idea. I don't know what the response, but that's, that seems to make sense. That's a
Erik Ellefson (10:01) Right. Right? Right, yep. Yeah, we've seemed to have a lot of, even on our Google reviews, have a lot of positive feedback from it. yeah, they're just like, wow, we haven't had anybody else come in here and even open the panel for this project. wow, just, look at all the time you put into this. You're giving us the option. That doesn't mean we win all the time, right? There's still other people that are doing a good job out there that'll come in.
Reasonable Tech Dad (10:32) about that structure, yeah. I've never heard of it.
Erik Ellefson (10:50) if somebody's really budget conscious or whatever, they might still go with somebody else. But the point is that we're giving them the best options we can. Just a real spread of things and being very clear, open, honest with them and very thorough. a lot of times that makes a good connection. can really connect with that individual and hopefully go forward and serve them in some way with one of those options.
Reasonable Tech Dad (11:18) That's got to be cool to hear on the feedback, especially the way you talk about your values on that page. That's got to line up with you as a person when you, know, people are telling you that kind of feedback that you're making them feel good about the purchase, right? That's good business to somebody like you when you're getting, you know what I mean? Things are working out for everybody and they feel good about where they're at and how they're spending. That's amazing. That's cool. I, because you do kind of, when you talk to a lot of these guys, you hear about the model of three
Erik Ellefson (11:31) Hmm.
Reasonable Tech Dad (11:44) And you see that as a web guide too. Like I'm on websites, you can see that pretty much across software when you log into a service, good, better, best, right down the line. It's a very tried and true model across lots of industries. It's a simple way for people to feel like they have considered all the options and they understand the tiers of what they're buying so then they can make a decision based on those three prices, which is awesome. And you're adding another layer to it so you have options within. That's super cool.
Erik Ellefson (12:06) Yep. Yep.
Reasonable Tech Dad (12:12) So then that, I mean, that's the things that are going well for you guys. You you have a new framework and then kind of the fundamentals, treating people well, having good values, treating your employees well and having people that are coming to work in a good attitude and in a good lifestyle so that they're coming and treating their customers well in turn. That kind of all ties together just from a value structure, I assume.
Erik Ellefson (12:32) Yeah, yeah, yeah, we talk about values and mission and stuff at our monthly meetings and try to get some examples from the guys. know, hey, where was an example where you saw that we were being, you know, caring this month or that we were being thorough or we were being truthful or something, you know, and they'll give me examples of like, you know, we could have, you know, not even, yeah, we didn't have to do this, but we went and told the customer about it anyway and made sure that was right with them.
Reasonable Tech Dad (12:51) Yes. Pulling that out of the guys.
Erik Ellefson (13:01) You know, so getting them to acknowledge, you these things, you may try to hire people that do these anyway, right? Like, it's not like these are our core values and you have to do them. It's like, hopefully this is you somewhat, right? Like, I mean, they didn't come from the employees themselves necessarily, but hopefully they can embody these. And so, you even just pointing out like, see, you're doing them.
Reasonable Tech Dad (13:11) Yes. Yes.
Erik Ellefson (13:27) Like you're maybe not even actively thinking, well, I guess I should do this core value right now. Like you're doing them because that's part of who you are and what you're doing at your work.
Reasonable Tech Dad (13:35) and you acknowledge that and then that builds on itself. They're like, yeah, you're right. I am doing that, know, especially your apprentices, the young guys, you know, they haven't heard that kind of stuff yet. I know at 40, 41 years old, I didn't think of, I think about those things frequently in my business, right? Values and how that shines through and how that snowballs. But as a young guy, I can give shit about that. You know I mean? And, if somebody were to be leaning over my shoulder on a weekly or monthly meeting and be like, hey, Ryan, you're carrying yourself with integrity.
Erik Ellefson (13:42) Yep. Yeah. You
Reasonable Tech Dad (14:01) Like look here where you're being honest, you know what I mean? I think that that's amazing, because I think that everybody needs that. Doesn't matter, young, old, whoever. So good for you guys. I think the idea, I think that can kind of transition us into what my next question typically is, is challenges, is when you said hiring and finding, you said we try to hire people for that, is how is hiring right now? Because that, I mean, across the contractor world, volume is not the issue. It's not leads, it's execution.
Erik Ellefson (14:09) Yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad (14:30) in my experience and for what I'm hearing out there, everybody's busy. You can find work. It's a matter of can you do the work? So where are the challenges for Topline right now?
Erik Ellefson (14:40) Yeah, that's interesting because it's like, you know, that's the first question anybody asks like, you how's work? You guys busy? You know, and you're not just the same thing as someone said, like, how are you doing? I'm good. That's just your natural response. Like, works good. And then it's kind of like, you know, actually, yeah, actually, we're only booked out a week right now or something. You know, it's like you don't ever like really, you know, scale back and actually talk about it. But
Reasonable Tech Dad (14:54) I could go on for hours about that topic alone.
Erik Ellefson (15:05) No, I mean I'd say like the last couple winters have kind of been slow. A lot more slower, a lot slower than I would want them to be. And it's always hard because like, you know, like, okay, well just hired somebody that fall. So we're really slower or do we just have more people to do the work? You know, and then like the next winter, like, well we just hired another person. So do we have an extra person or is it, are we actually slow on work? You know, so just really realizing that it's, you know, there's so many people that it's not the same, I feel like, is like,
Reasonable Tech Dad (15:19) Sure.
Erik Ellefson (15:33) you know, our parents' generation may be like, they still have the business card of the guy that installed their garage door, you know? And it's like, that's, who do you need it? You need a garage door? You gotta call Alan, you know? Right, and that guy was probably a killer, man. He was probably really good, you know? But Alan's retired, and now, you know, I call that magnet, and he doesn't even pick up. I gotta call someone else, right? And so, yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad (15:41) I'm gonna keep it on the fridge for a decade. It's all beat up and faded. Yes. Yes. Alan's done. You get his voicemail a couple of weeks in a row.
Erik Ellefson (16:02) Yeah, exactly. So then you're down to what? You're Googling garage door company near me, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so that's what all these people, younger people, they're moving houses way more than people used to move. They're moving cities, they're moving states, they're moving jobs, and they're just Googling. They're just looking or they're posting on next door Facebook. What's a good electrician? And so realizing that we really need to have a presence.
Reasonable Tech Dad (16:10) Exactly right.
Erik Ellefson (16:32) out there, realizing, okay, I don't know how much we dabbled in local service ads and pay-per-click on Google, that kind of stuff, but at least having that profile up to date, having the website, as you know, up to date, all that SEO stuff, really, really there, because these are people, they're hot leads. People are coming looking for an electrician. You want them to call you, right?
Reasonable Tech Dad (16:34) Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Erik Ellefson (16:58) And so that's something we've really, in the last year, really started working on. And then recently, even more so, like kind of our goal would be for like online would be like, you know, people want to hire someone they like and know and trust. using, you know, using Facebook to just post about life and also post about, like if you look at my Facebook, we post a lot about.
Reasonable Tech Dad (17:16) Those are the reds.
Erik Ellefson (17:25) our values, what we're doing. Hey, here's one of my employees. Let's meet this guy and what he's about. And even posting stuff about the difficulties of business. And just being real on there. Yeah, and then when somebody needs electrician, they're like, yeah, I've seen Eric post all the time about EV chargers and stuff like that. And I'm not on there lying or anything, right? We're not faking what we're putting on there.
Reasonable Tech Dad (17:27) Yes. Yes, some transparency.
Erik Ellefson (17:55) real stuff, we just have to take the time to do it, you know. yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad (18:02) And I think that that's not, I think that that is a, I don't want to use new age, like it's futuristic cause it's been around for a little while, but I think it is the, the current method of building rapport. really is. Cause when you talk about the younger avenue, right? Like that's, that's where they live. They're on their phones. You see it every, walk around for a day, sit at the bar for a day and look around. Everybody's on their phones. They're on social media, right? And that's, you might not be thinking about an electrician right now. I know I'm not thinking about when my toilet breaks, my float valve isn't working, whatever. But if you post something cheeky, funny, your values, you talk about integrity or something along those lines and somebody gives it a thumbs up or a heart, you've already established a seed there. And with the way the algorithms work, they're probably gonna see you again. And if you post on a consistent basis, and then I know you know this, if you've been working on your digital presence for a year, when you use words like SEO, that is how Businesses build rapport now. You talk about like-knowing trust. Well, it used to be we knew Alan and Alan, we would hear about Alan. We would see Alan at the VFW on Sundays. We would see Alan at church on Sunday. And we all knew Alan and everybody talked about Alan and we all knew Alan's son and Alan's family now it is a social media feed. That's how your brain's programmed to get to know people or at least theirs are. And I think that that's obviously, I assume it's shown fruits for you.
Erik Ellefson (19:03) Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Reasonable Tech Dad (19:30) You what mean? You've seen, I assume it's worked out, you know, and you want, because obviously you understand the value of it. So I think that is kind of the future for a lot of these guys and the way that you're going to interact with the next generation in particular, because it certainly isn't going to be a handshake and an old buddy kind of thing. I guess, God, we're just hitting natural transitions, dude. You're just nailing this. So like the next generation, that's what we lay it down for. I mean, that's that's that's something that I like to touch on.
Erik Ellefson (19:36) Yeah. Right, yep, yep.
Reasonable Tech Dad (19:58) because of my kids, I know you have children too. What do we tell the next generation, man? Give them the advice, lay it on them. Why should they be getting into the trades and why are the trades a great avenue to pursue for the young kids out there?
Erik Ellefson (20:15) Yeah, man, I wish I knew the percentages for electricians. I forget what it is. If it's like for every five electricians retiring, there's three entering the workforce or something like that. But that doesn't factor in the, I even forget what they say, if it's in the next five years.
Reasonable Tech Dad (20:29) Interesting, I hadn't heard that number yet.
Erik Ellefson (20:40) Next five to 10 years, the need for electrical work will increase like 10 to 20 percent. So it's not only are we not being, yes, it's like not only are we not being replaced, the demand's even growing on top of it.
Reasonable Tech Dad (20:49) And it's already, there's already a big need. Yeah, as succinctly said as I think you could. That's it is. it's you hear it from every single person when I ask that question. Like, go, go kids, get into the trades, jump, jump in. I guess I'll ask you because you seem a little more tied in are like Minnesota in particular. Have they been able to expand the training programs at all? is it like are those are those guys waiting on? They're not waiting on a list right now, I assume. Do we for you say that three that are coming in, there's five leaving those three that are coming in is our education program locally supporting what's coming in now? Are they able to serve what's coming in?
Erik Ellefson (21:39) I would say so. I couldn't tell you if they have any sort of waiting list, but most of the tech schools, there's a lot of tech schools around that have the program and a lot of people are going through it. And then there's also, you know, there's obviously the unions got their program and stuff too. I know to kind of balance that out for people that are non-union and maybe didn't go to school, the... It used to be the Minnesota Electrical Association, now it's just called Electrical Association. They have a four year apprenticeship program. You can go to just an online school one night a week. Yeah, just for your all four years of apprenticeship.
Reasonable Tech Dad (22:21) Interesting. So they do an online program that you can, do they get you, do they pair you up with jobs that way or are you able to get, so they get you the education portion. Like you and I, we went to tech school, I had to go for two and a half years and that was just the education portion. And I think you get like maybe, is it's like a year of hours or towards your journeyman or something like that if you do it two and a half years, you get a year.
Erik Ellefson (22:37) Yes. Yeah, so if you do a two year degree, yeah, if you do a two year degree, two year electrical degree, takes one year off of your apprenticeship. So this, this that I'm talking about, this night thing is, it has nothing, it doesn't accret, doesn't count towards your hours or anything. You'd basically do it while you're in your apprenticeship. So you'd sign up, and you know, so year one apprenticeship, yeah, exactly. Yep, your parallel circuits, all that stuff, and.
Reasonable Tech Dad (22:56) Yes. okay. And you'd learn your electrical theory and your code through that. Got it.
Erik Ellefson (23:14) I think that's great because there's so many times you're doing the work you don't actually, as an apprentice you never break open the code book and necessarily see why you're doing something. Or to be able to prove, here it is in the code book, this is why I do it this way.
Reasonable Tech Dad (23:26) No doubt. Or on the other side, you go to the two-year program and you get to go to the, do like lab once or twice a week where, the way you're talking, you'd be working, right? I feel like that would be a better application course, but just as a personal preference, being the hands-on trade anyway.
Erik Ellefson (23:40) Right? Yeah, so if somebody's especially like, yeah, they're like swapping careers, you know, mid-20s, something like that, it's like unless you can't, you know job and you're waiting around, you want to go to school, go ahead, but otherwise I'd say just go get a job, you know, and start, you know, doing online school at the same time. You know, if you're just getting out of high school and your parents want you to get a degree and... I don't think that's a bad route to go to the trade school. Definitely a good option. But some people are more oriented with school and they're more of a book learner. Other people, it's a real struggle. So I wouldn't say it's a deal breaker either way.
Reasonable Tech Dad (24:12) I agree. I agree. I agree. And I think just to finish up on that, that note in particular for anybody listening, I think more people are hands-on than people think they are because of the way that we're built and the way that they're raised. They think phone and digital and computer. think more people, I think it leads a lot of people. Cause I bartended for a decade and you, just hear a lot of stories, right? And you hear a lot of people take a lot of routes for reasons that weren't theirs.
Erik Ellefson (24:44) Hmm.
Reasonable Tech Dad (24:51) And I think that that lands them in a place where they get a little lost or confused or, you know, disenchanted. And I think more people are hands-on than they think they are. Everybody's like, digital this and computer that, and I like this, but go try it. ahead. Why don't you try the hands-on thing? What's the problem with taking another, you know, hauling some lumber for six months or wiring up some boxes for six months, putting some plates on. Go figure it out. You know, at least try it and say you've tried to say you don't like it before you just assume it's not it for you. It would be my offering.
Erik Ellefson (25:03) yet. That's right. Yeah.
Reasonable Tech Dad (25:21) Eric, this was fantastic, dude. I really appreciate your time and I really appreciate you coming on and I think we'll talk again soon.
Erik Ellefson (25:29) Sounds great, man. Appreciate you having me. It's been a joy.
Reasonable Tech Dad (25:33) All right, take it easy.